Refracta Development, Scripts, etc.
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nadir

- nadir
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## Re: Going with the systemd flow . . . or not?

Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:51 am

Oh: And i don't think using debian as a base makes still much sense to me. They have lost my trust. Too many workarounds too.
(Not saying refracta is supposed to change it's base, only that i for one don't care for debian anymore).
For me it is: clear cut
(And if many do that, it seems like that, it will - at least - give them a bit of feedback and something to think about. He has put that idea, lost trust, in very clear words: http://lkml.iu.edu//hypermail/linux/ker ... 02496.html I could swear it was a DD, but perhaps that was another mail).
Short: You really did *that* ****? Ok, goodbye.
dzz

- dzz
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## Re: Going with the systemd flow . . . or not?

Wed Oct 15, 2014 4:49 pm

There may well come a point where custom changes to keep systemd out of Debian are not worth the effort. For me not quite yet. It is also an effort to compile almost everything (e.g. gentoo, although there is much I do like about gentoo) or a new learning curve from the bottom (bsd), at least till it's seen to work for me.
However I also have begun investigating other distros. Thanks kelsoo for the dragora info. My respect for software freedom is automatic and unconditional. That has a lot to do with why I have used Debian for so long and why I see systemd as a threat.

> It is getting worse. Now in sid, bsdutils (essential) depends on libsystemd0

This is extremely serious, seems it really is essential.. man-db (at least) depends on it , in turn lots of other stuff including Trinity Desktop.
I don't know enough about if or why there may be a potential threat from having only the systemd libs present without the main systemd components (same with selinux). Can anyone else help to explain that?
nadir

- nadir
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## Re: Going with the systemd flow . . . or not?

Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:24 pm

In case it was not clear:
I was only speaking for myself.
I can relate to people who keep on using Debian for this reason (keeping out systemd is still possible, while switching the distro is quite a burden) or others.

> Idon't know enough about if or why there may be a potential threat from having only the systemd libs present without the main systemd components (same with selinux). Can anyone else help to explain that?

I can't.
And cause i don't understand a lot of stuff, i have to trust the OS that i use. I could live with systemd or any other initsystem (i really don't care for them), but down-your-throat-and-now-be-quiet was/is not what makes my trust grow (Just as well one could say: you don't understand, you probably overreact, don't you? And it wouldn' t be completely wrong. But at least i have a bit of fun looking at other solutions, and this time more deep than i did in the past)
Truth to be told: not sure if there is a "threat" at all. I guess one could install both, systemd and sysv, and simply use sysv as the init system.
I think all systemd libs were moved in a single lib (libsystemd0 or such). Question mark here (something happened, that is for sure, but i am not sure what).
fsmithred

- fsmithred
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## Re: Going with the systemd flow . . . or not?

Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:09 am

I don't have an answer to dzz's question, either. It looks like libsystemd0 is replacing the -daemon and -login packages.

Code:
  `[email protected]
  :~$ dpkg -l |grep libsystemd
  ii libsystemd-daemon0:i386 215-5 i386 systemd utility library (deprecated)
  ii libsystemd-journal0:i386 215-5 i386 systemd journal utility library (deprecated)
  ii libsystemd-login0:i386 215-5 i386 systemd login utility library (deprecated)
  ii libsystemd0:i386 215-5 i386 systemd utility library
  [email protected]
  :~$ aptitude show libsystemd0
  Package: libsystemd0
  New: yes
  State: installed
  Automatically installed: yes
  Multi-Arch: same
  Version: 215-5
  Priority: optional
  Section: libs
  Maintainer: Debian systemd Maintainers <[email protected]
  >
  Architecture: i386
  Uncompressed Size: 228 k
  PreDepends: libc6 (>= 2.9), libgcrypt20 (>= 1.6.1), liblzma5 (>=
  5.1.1alpha+20120614), multiarch-support
  Description: systemd utility library
  The libsystemd0 library provides interfaces to various systemd components.
  Homepage: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd
  sid-systemd::/home/user# aptitude -s full-upgrade
  <snip>
  The following packages will be REMOVED:
  libgconf2-4{u} libjpeg62{u} libllvm3.4{u} libsystemd-daemon0{u}
  libsystemd-login0{u}
  <snip>
  `

> dzz wrote:

> > Code:
> >   `deb http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb jessie main-r14
> >   deb http://mirror.xcer.cz/trinity-sb jessie deps-r14
> >   apt-key adv --keyserver pks.gpg.cz --recv-keys A04BE668`

That worked better, thanks. I got TDE installed in jessie but had to install liblcms1 from wheezy. Wow, I had forgotten how many controls kde has. Have to say that TDE on jessie with 500mb ram runs a hell of a lot faster than kubuntu with 784mb ram.
@anticapitalista:
What xfce4 parts did you install? I had an xfce4 installation (without xfce4-session) but it stopped working after I installed and removed a bunch of other stuff. I wiped it out to make room for trinity.
anticapitalista

- anticapitalista
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## Re: Going with the systemd flow . . . or not?

Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:55 pm

I started out with antiX-14RV-core (testing repo), installed in VBox, then installed xorg and xfce4.
libsystemd0 gets pulled in, but the init is still sysvinit. Apparently, systemd-shim will be available in Jessie and supported. (Can't find the link right now).
All it really means is that, at least for Jessie, non-systemd init will be possible with a basic xfce4 set up. User will still have to be careful though when installing apps.
dzz

- dzz
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## Re: Going with the systemd flow . . . or not?

Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:28 pm

All the systemd libs have been merged into libsystemd0. Xfce depends on dbus (I'm using an older version) which depends on libsystemd0.
A week or so back I installed the xfce meta (xfce4) with no *systemd* in a chroot using jessV_nox-20140929_1256 as a base (thanks fsr) although disfunctional as earlier described. Got a live iso from it.
bsdutils: 1:2.20.1-5.11 in jessie has no systemd deps. 1:2.25.1-5 in sid does. http://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/c ... _changelog
I don't know to what degree accepting systemd-shim may mean accepting other systemd functions which have nothing to do with an "init system". Last time I used it it was disfunctional and bugs went unfixed. It might make Jessie (stable?!) and disappear soon after.
https://packages.debian.org/sid/liblcms1 .. TDE for Jessie shouldn't need anything from Wheezy, maybe a mirror-sync blip?
fsmithred

- fsmithred
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## Re: Going with the systemd flow . . . or not?

Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:10 am

There's no liblcms1 in jessie. It's in wheezy, and there's a newer version of it in sid. And libclms2-2 is the same version in jessie and sid, but that doesn't satisfy the dependency for ksvg-trinity. I guess I'll replace it with the version from sid.
I just made a snapshot of this jessie system I'm playing with, and it not only booted, but I was automatically logged into the desktop (openbox; no display manager). Note that the desktop is now on tty1, instead of tty7. That's a systemd thing, but there's no systemd or libsystemd-anything on this installation. So I guess it's now a debian thing.
One thing I forgot to do with jessV-nox was to enable all magic sysrq keys. Add the following line to etc/sysctl.conf

Code:
  `kernel.sysrq=1`

golinux

- golinux
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## Re: Going with the systemd flow . . . or not?

Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:40 am

> fsmithred wrote:. . . there's no systemd or libsystemd-anything on this installation . . .

Starting to feel hopeful . . .

> fsmithred wrote:One thing I forgot to do with jessV-nox was to enable all magic sysrq keys. Add the following line to etc/sysctl.conf
> Code:
>   `kernel.sysrq=1`

magic sysrq is not enabled on my old squeeze install. Can I just add that line to get it working? I'm guessing it will require a reboot?
fsmithred

- fsmithred
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## Re: Going with the systemd flow . . . or not?

Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:01 am

@golinux: Yeah, add it and reboot. If you don't want to reboot, add it to /proc like this:

Code:
  `echo "1" > /proc/sys/kernel/sysrq`

Even more hopeful: mplayer installed without complaint and works. That didn't work before. I guess adding the old libpulse0 fixed that.
@anticapitalista: I've got a sid install in vbox with full xfce and both systemd and sysvinit. It seems to be working fiine, but I haven't really done a lot with it. Default boot is systemd, adding 'init=/lib/sysvinit/init' to the kernel line boots it with sysvinit.
dzz

- dzz
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- Location: Devon, England

## Re: Going with the systemd flow . . . or not?

Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:49 pm

> There's no liblcms1 in jessie

Correct.. my mistake! However the latest TDE build is using libclms2-2 instead so that problem seems already sorted. Note that the full tde-trinity "metapackage" is rather bloated, you can get a "minimal" install with just tdebase-trinity and add extras later, as required. I use a custom package-list.
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