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## Devuan "discourse" down with expired cert as of yesterday

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### Re: Devuan "discourse" down with expired cert as of yesterda

by thwak » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:31 am

> Been struggling with Slackware during the last weeks. Not exactly what i would call comfortable ...
> (Salix is probably a good workaround. Or perhaps VectorLinux).

Hey, don't overlook porteus
http://build.porteus.org/
Although I wore out my welcome* at their forum a year or so back, I still admire their build(s) and the quality of their helpdocs.
* actually, it was more like a "rage quit", or pouty "taking my toys and going home" exit

thwak
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### Re: Devuan "discourse" down with expired cert as of yesterda

by thwak » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:48 am

> but i dont blame the devs for this-- their isolation was legitimate and caused by the absolutely endless sjw-like abuse from
> debians systemd fans-- who to this day smear the devs for the actions of other parties.

I have great respect for other teams, e.g. grml.org who have chosen to develop in a relatively isolated (not easily approachable) manner, but the early (and continued) blather from devuan contained a decidedly grassroots ("let's take back OUR debian") undertone. Instead, to date, we've wound up with yet another "dysfunctional meritocratic tribunal".

thwak
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### Re: Devuan "discourse" down with expired cert as of yesterda

by figlfdev » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:06 am

> thwak wrote:the early (and continued) blather from devuan contained a decidedly grassroots ("let's take back OUR debian") undertone. Instead, to date, we've wound up with yet another "dysfunctional meritocratic tribunal".

well its just debian without systemd-- a dysfunctional meritocratic tribunal was probably inevitable. but what changed was the way there was simply no (legitimate) way out of systemd unless you found a way out of debian first. i spent months running debian jessie with sysvinit-core, and realized that the packages were going to continue to have it creeping in unless i found a real long-term solution.
before systemd, i was promoting debian as the most reasonable and stable os in the world, (wait-- consider the competition first...) giving away computers that had it installed and helping people use them. i was designing a class (and materials) on refurbishing machines with debian, which both debian+systemd and debian+sysvinit-core made into quite a pointless endeavor. so i spent a year using devuan and writing fig instead. because ive always wanted to teach coding to the actual computer-phobic. (they dont call themselves "computerphobes" anymore, phones have desensitized them. they still exist though.)
i miss giving computers away, but now i sort of have a distro (which like fig itself, started as a simple experiment and not the "serious" work its become. its still fun) tailored to my needs, i can show that to people instead of giving them a computer. but the first thing the girl said when i installed debian wheezy on the machine at the shelter (they were having so many windows problems they were like "do whatever, we just need it to go online") was "its so much faster!"
if there were an easier way than using devuan, perhaps i would take it. there isnt, which says how vital (at least to me) devuan is. ive tried so many distros, i always come back to apt-based ones. i dont even like apt- its a complete nightmare and badly needs serious fixing. i just like all the other package systems less.

figlfdev
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### Re: Devuan "discourse" down with expired cert as of yesterda

by thwak » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:05 pm

> if there were an easier way than using devuan, perhaps i would take it.

That's unlikely -- you're too emotionally-invested I your current choice.
You would dig in your heels, expending considerable energy toward justifying your current choice.

> there was simply no (legitimate) way out of systemd unless you found a way out of debian first.

antix16 and MX15 have been systemd-free debian8-based all along.
Several others ( ref: http://without-systemd.org ) have fallen prey to systemd, but multiple viable alternatives do exist.
Respectfully, it sounds like you're late to the party and constrained by a "I know what I know, don't confuse me with the facts" mindset.

thwak
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### Re: Devuan "discourse" down with expired cert as of yesterda

by figlfdev » Tue Sep 20, 2016 6:27 pm

> That's unlikely -- you're too emotionally-invested I your current choice.

im certainly time-invested. whether this needs to turn into some kind of pointless ad-hom about emotions vs (whats the alternative? sense? perspective? simply being correct?)

> You would dig in your heels, expending considerable energy toward justifying your current choice.

its got nothing to do with my heels-- i had something that worked for ages, it stopped, i found something else that worked, its been extremely reliable.

> antix16 and MX15 have been systemd-free debian8-based all along.

why arent they moving forward with devuan-like momentum?
youve set me up nicely with your "emotional" argument, so that any question or fact i may put forward can be waved away with circular ad-hom. though your claims so far are no more backed up than mine, and all ive stated is that systemd wasnt doing it for me and devuan is working.
lucky thing im used to everyone on the internet thinking they know more than i do. it does get old.
i actually want something a little mainstream, and ive tried lots of debian-based distros that didnt go anywhere. im not saying antix is one, but it does remind me of several pretty solid distros that arent here-- heck, i never thought #! would talk of retirement. didnt they come back to life?
but ive got my checkboxes of things im looking for like everyone else, and so far devuan checks those. its easier to find a distro than a community, thats for sure.

> Respectfully, it sounds like you're late to the party and constrained by a "I know what I know, don't confuse me with the facts" mindset.

when did the party start exactly? i was using debian testing, and one day systemd came in. took a few days to figure out what was going on, then i started looking for things that could fix it-- applied things. looked up what the fuss was about. got annoyed. started watching alternatives (late 2014) and even tried bsd for a lark.
i wasnt just following devuan, though i followed it the most closely since it looked like it had the best way forward. i really only need one good distro, but i will try more than one to get to it-- and i did.
to me, it sounds like youre going to write/invent a story about me based on the idea that i have any facts at all, but im always looking for the truth. my guess is that until i mirror yours, im going to be charged with simply being stubborn and misinformed. thats par for the course online, but hey, keep me posted with all the facts you like-- im not uninterested, except with the unnecessary condescending parts about me. thats pretty boring and you really dont need to insult me to get me to listen. i never think im right about everything, and i look for and find more facts than things i say (think about that.) so more facts? bring on the facts!

figlfdev
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### Re: Devuan "discourse" down with expired cert as of yesterda

by greenjeans » Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:41 pm

Dang, didn't mean to start a shitstorm, sorry guys.
It's so hard to understand nuance in written communication, so just want to be clear that i'm absolutely grateful and excited about Devuan and especially Refracta and all the hard work that goes into them. I'll take what I can get and work with it until I can't. And I don't think anyone would begrudge me hedging my bet long-term by doing similar minimalist-isos of Debian in addition to Devuan.
So it's all good, but I did want to put it out there one time what my thoughts are on their forum-style. Big forums can be a hassle to be sure, especially for mods, but a big robust forum also makes for extremely fertile ground for new ideas, it very often relieves the developers of some support duty when experienced users help new users with their issues, it helps finding bugs, it provides testing over a huge range of hardware etc.
I'm just happy to have new toys to play with, not sure folks realize how rare a program like Refractasnapshot really is and has been, there's build-scripts and bots out there in places, the old mylivecd script from mandriva (excellent program), remastersys went bye-bye.....it's an amazing tool for creativity, really empowering for even the average guy to build it like he wants it, which is the heart and soul of open-source philosophy for me at least.
http://www.mrgreenjeans.net/opensource
Devuan-mate-minimal hybrid-iso, made with Refractasnapshot.

greenjeans
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### Re: Devuan "discourse" down with expired cert as of yesterda

by thwak » Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:09 pm

> why arent they moving forward with devuan-like momentum?

From where I sit, their momentum has exceeded, continues to exceed that of devuan.
If requested, I'll post a bulleted list of the achievements/differences I've noticed.
Really though, I had hoped you'd check/compare for yourself.
re-reading, I noticed "bring on the facts!"
I'll just quickly mention three points:
~~ antix/MX isn't just a debian8+dfce "blended fork"(?) ala devuan
they are providing value-added tools which they've developed in-house
(for instance "MX menu editor for xfce")
~~ MX both respects/enables user's choice to remain systemd-free
AND offers a degree of support (without chastizing) to users who DO choose to use systemd init.
~~ MX is actively engaged in packaging user-requested non-systemd-dependent versions of programs,
often satisfying a request within 24 hours. Additional (non-requested) packages are also reqularly
released, and are "announced" (via both user forum and twitter, IIRC)
~~ antix/MX ARE USING A DERIVED, FEATURE-EXPANDED, VERSION OF THE CLEVER
LIVEBOOT SNAPSHOT UTILITY CREATED BY fsmithred. (The point of contrast here
is that devuan is not yet supporting live / persistence / frugal / install / snapshot)

> though your claims so far are no more backed up than mine

review this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=594
I tried to be helpful, citing (providing a link to) an alternative build framework which
seems to be compatible with your stated goal, mentioning that it (antix) might even be
based on devuan [someone posted to state that it is not].
In response (granted, it's only been a few days since then) no "thanks" nor "thanks, but no thanks"
just a change of subject and shifted attention, jabberjawing here in this thread.
Apologies for stating my perception so pointedly that it came across as an attack on your character.
I'm usually opinionated and, yep, sometimes sharp-tongued... but I'm not into drama.
You'll find no quarrel with me; I'm here to exchange ideas.

> when did the party start exactly? i was using debian testing, and one day systemd came in.

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014
topic: "a plea: in antix v14R final... please omit (shim) systemd"
http://antix.freeforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=5237
Although I try to avoid the feds (and ex-wives) by using a different username at each site,
my goofy, parenthesized, run-on, writing style is probably easily recognizeable.
What else? I have multiple wiki user accounts at without-systemd.org (oops, lost password)
and contributed quite a lot of edits/additions to the list of distros, but am unsure of the
start date of my participation there.
So, yeah... welcome to the party.
===========================
Now, moving on...
Because you've expressed an interest in "creating a distro" and preferably not maintaining/distributing an iso
here's an example of an implementation method that you may (or may not) wish to consider:
http://antix.freeforums.org/modified-an ... t6129.html
https://github.com/KERNELULTRAS/LegacyIce-antiX

thwak
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### Re: Devuan "discourse" down with expired cert as of yesterda

by thwak » Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:22 pm

> i never thought #! would talk of retirement. didnt they come back to life?

Yes --} http://www.bunsenlabs.org
Hehheh, (in addition to forum + IRC channel) they're the only distro I've seen which has its own "DeviantArt group".
They're a happy, chatty bunch over there, but their distro has followed debian8 and is using systemd init.

thwak
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### Re: Devuan "discourse" down with expired cert as of yesterda

by golinux » Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:38 pm

bunsenlabs has also played with Devuan
May the FORK be with you!

golinux
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### Re: Devuan "discourse" down with expired cert as of yesterda

by greenjeans » Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:57 pm

There's also a "crunchbang ++" now which seemed at first glance to be identical to good ol #!
http://www.mrgreenjeans.net/opensource
Devuan-mate-minimal hybrid-iso, made with Refractasnapshot.

greenjeans
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  Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2016 10:57 pm
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